40K Source

Seeing that tyranids are in this version a custom class creation would be sick. For example having a total point cost per team divided among everyone. Biomorphs could be selected and added to each of the classes as they could be according to the codex guidelines. same thing would go for the space marines with weapons, gear and enhancements. would be tight. just an idea.

generally thats the plan for the space marine team, although it will be a personal point allotment, you give it to the whole team and someone always acts the git and runs off with all the good and expensive gear only to be chopped in half when trying to use a lascannon as a club.

The nids are to be wokring on the principle of broods, the brood you buy defines your wargear, although perhaps veterain broods with adaptions later on...

I'd love to see biomods and a variety of imperial wargear in EX at some point, but for starters were going for some basic classes with set wargear.

Regarding points handling, I plan to keep this very much in the background, players dont really need to know what's going on with the point values, we can let the PCs take care of the number chunking.

Have you guys considered limiting the number of roles available rather than a points based system. I'm thinking of the kind of system used in Red Orchestra (well the UT2004 mod, I haven't got osterfront). For example the Space Marine team has 1 Sergeant slot, 1 Devastator slot, 2 Specialist slots and unlimited Tactical slots. Each player would select a role depending on what was free. The availability of the different roles would be assigned by the mapper. This would give the sides a better, and more realistic, balance to them and might encourage team play. Of course there's always the possibility of having some muppet(s) in charge of your heavy weapons but your always going to get idiot players.

We have considered such a system, when we were planning the game modes (http://www.40ksource.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=62).  The trouble is they tend to feel annoyingly arbitary/unfair unless all the classes are equaly balanced.  We chose to risk breaking army list consistancy rather than cripple certain aspects of some classes in order to balance them, because a heavy weapon is always better...

Sure, but will the game play be ok if there are 6 or 7 Marines running around with Las Cannons (or whatever heavy weapons you include).

The different classes don't necessarily have to be balanced, as long as the two teams are well balanced. I guess as it's a team game the overall goal should be for your side to win, so you have to work with what you've got.

I can see how players might like all being on an even footing though. It's probalbly going to come down to the type of fan base your going to attract.

a lot of the leasons we learned from RS1, at one point you could use any class in the whole game at any time (and up to 5 of that class cept the basic ones).

typically everyone choose terminators, dreadnsughts or las cannons which made the game suck so bad poeple stopped playing it for a while.

Thats exactly the kind of situation I was thinking you might be able to avoid with a limited amount of special roles slots available. I'm sure I read else were on the site that when each player starts they only have access to the basic troop type, then as they kill enemies and achieve objectives the more advanced troop types become available. Assuming players are going to always choose the best troop type available to them, as the match progress's aren't you simply going to end up with a server full of the most powerful troops anyway? Ok, it might balance out if everyone progress's at roughly the same rate, but what if a new player joins half way through. Everyone else is going to be more powerful than them - they'll die more often, kill less and find it more difficult to reach the same level as everyone else.

i think were peobably gonna take a leaf out of the current RS for that one, in that there will either be sargents or vets that get access to the truly devastating equipment and oyu can only have one of each type.

although again we will have to see how things pan out when we get alpha testing.

well, for choosing such a good class, you also have to pay the respective big amount of points gathered during the early game. and you will garner less points while you are a good class. so eventually you will run out of points and have to choose a cheap class again. at least thats how its suppposed to be ;-).

Ok - sounds like a similar system to that used in Counter Strike. I haven't played CS to much but I still noticed that the trend was for everyone to end up with big guns after a couple of rounds. Hmmm, awarding players less points for using the better classes might get around this (like you suggested). It does mean though that you might still end up with situations were everyone has enough points for the big boys the match is swamped with heavy weapons. Yes they should run out of points more quickly but, considering the amount of firepower the team will have in one go, will the match last long enough for that to happen?

well, the current ROUND will surely not last long enough for that to happen in that case. but these pointbudgets are maintained throughout your whole playtime. that usually means throughout several months! (as long as you stay on one server.) so in one round they might rule, but the next round theyll prolly have used up all the precious points ;-).

Hmm interesting idea. It would make people thinik abit more about the cost to benefit of playing a better class. You'd be relying on having permanent long term servers to pull it off. Are the games going to be more of a short, rounds based system or are you aiming for 10-20 min matches?

how about only rewarding long time players with the option of veteran.
but wait there's more....

you can't have two veterans in a team so this veteran picks or is assigned other players. not just random noobs and newbies but other players that have found a specialisation such as, this player is good with the melta so he's you special, this one is great with the heav bolter so them plus some newer players as tacticals and there you  have a nice balanced squad

and now allow me to point out the obvious fault with this idea....

it would mean that there needs to be a constant influx of people either starting out and being tactiacls or players that wanted to stick with their bolters and not try a melta or hev bolter and of course we would all end up being veterans with no one to comand

but it sounded good at the start no?

yes, however things have changed somewhat sine this post was created, mainly that the Vet is now more of a sargent than a uber hero.

right now the vet is a small upgrade of the tactical marine with the added advantage of increased stats and a better CC weapon combo. The inferno pistol is proving to very useful for taking out those big nids you come across while the bolter allows for some ranged combat.

i feel that the current points syetm for RS 1 works extreamly well.

thats what makes RS1 RS1. i dont think there is any other mod like it when it comes to a points and class options.


if you can somehow pull that over into RS:EX then awsome.

it was the last idea, i really wanted to implement for RS 1. the last 'point to make' so to speak :-). i guess at least for one person i got it right ;-).

the plan right now is a similar but modified version of the RS points, there is a cap on the points after which any you earn goes "to the team" allowing the good players to bolster the weaker ones. Some other stuff too.

i like the RS1 point system

I really like the idea of excess points going towards the team. It would probably benefit those players that join abit later in the round, allowing them to compete on a similar level to the other players how already have the good stuff. I can see it not going to well with certain elements of the online community (CS:S players I'm looking in your direction), but then maybe it will keep them away! Good for me, good for the community but not necessarily good for the mod as a whole.

given that within RS1 & 2 score and points are seporate things it shoudl workj well. You still get your score (but its part of the teams score) and on the side earn points for your class selection. The other good thing is that as part of the team you also have access to the points pool.

the cap will be 1 or two spawns of the biggest class available, so even if some retarded n00b runs off as a carni and dies horribally you will still have points and once all the spares are used up, n00b boy gets to spectate for being retarded while you continue.

should you get enough then the n00b can get back in and hopefully he has leanred something.

interesting system. I'd like to see it working, on paper sounds fine.

yeh, we do wonder how it will work in practice, i fear that it may be abused by players somehow...

oh, that can easily be tested :-D. it does confince me as an improbvement, so why not implement it in RS1 for testing?

Well, keeping your 'kill score' and 'class score' separate is a good idea. CS has this to some extent, where certain achievements benefit the team as a whole (winning a round for example), but it's implemented pretty poorly. Elite players gain a lead too easily, so while I'm struggling to afford dual .45's and kevlar because we lost the first round, I find myself with a M4 wedged in unmentionable places. This system shuns newer players, as if they don't have the upper hand from the word go, things are only going to get harder for them, as they're rediculously outgunned as well as outskilled.

A possible 'team balance' option is every few rounds the highest scoring player is forced to swap teams, and the lowest scoring player from the opposite team is swapped also. Not a constant thing, but an option while creating a game. Comments?

Points/scores wont be carried over between games of EX,  however we are planning for long games (~45 mins on one map).  Naturally you don't have to wait out the rest of the game if you cop one as in CS.  It's kind of like apples and oranges.

We'll see if there is a real need for skill balancing after version 1 is out.

I particularly hate automatic team swapping in CS:S. Also, considering that the gameplay between teams here is different (in CS it's pretty similar), it's not a guarantee that the teams will be even. I just don't like automatic team swapping...

we will have auto team balancing, where you get switched if the numbers of players on once team are uneven, its kinda needed. Although it will just not allow you to switch teams when you entrer the game if there unbalanced.

Sounds like a reasonable system, Typh.
Players are not forced to leave their team once they are in, but winner-joining is made impossible.

thats the idea, although it may cause issues if the players want to team balance for good reasons. Always the way of it.

I suggest balance protection only takes effect after 1 or 2 minutes of playing, so people are free to choose their team after each round or map, but not later on or if the game is already on when they join.

Also, a player should be able to issue a "team-swap request" in the team menu when he can't change team.
Then if someone from the other team do the same, they swap teams, and the player count remain the same.
That way a clan can gather on the same team, and a pro player can decide to help the loosing side.

the problem with that is when someone re-joins in order to swap teams, happens a lot in RS when players dont know aboout the menhu commands.

i like the idea of a team swap request, some kind of link that when you hit it swaps the players.

I saw your discussion of auto-balance but if you want to make it "fair" you have to take that 'Spectate' out.. in zombie horde mod (CS:S) people is trying to get Ct's through Spec by auto-balancin those who have been there rightfully or those who just joined to humans.. speaking of zombie mod will be there same kinda mod with HL2 zombies against Imperial Guards? (after this great Marines vs Nids mod what i saw today and downloaded immediatly)

well you cant actually spectate in rs2, your always gonna be inside either of the dropships so you have to be on a team, and your also locked onto the dropships flgiht path, so no spying since all you will see is whats below the dropship.

no zombies Vs guards, its not in the plan im afraid.

Welcome Talic.  I don't have any plans for guardsmen VS zombies, but we did have  some guardsman VS antlions (http://www.40ksource.com/refs/media/BolterInGame.jpg) testing, which felt a bit starship troopers ;)

I bet a mashup of the guardsmen models from our MDK and Gmod could give you the guard VS zombies experience you are looking for ahead of EXs release :twisted:

I'm not sure I see what you're saying about auto-balance and spectators.  Is the number of zombies balance against the number of players rather than number of CTs?

Thanks for answers and welcommins and its balanced for numbers.. if Ct's have 15 players and zombies(T) 13 players next round some of Ct gonna fly to T's.. "Best" way it could be 15 Cts vs 3 zombies and 13 spectators pressin M and 2 to get Cts side    :lol:  btw are there any servers up yet or you publish them later when mod is complete?

as the mod is unfinished there are no servers up for it at the moment.

Only the map dev kit has been released to the public, and upon release servers will be there. Its still a way off tho.

It should be noted that in the case of Ex no one team has a full set of AI, its currently working that you have equal human players on either team.

The Tyranids get wargear in the form of broods and a standard set, while the space marines get guns. Balance is doen in part as the SMs can put out a lot of fire, but theres more nids than marines thanks to the brood.

I'm not sure how serious you are, Chrome, about that Guardsman vs. Zombie thing.

But if you want that mod to come to exsistance, it would be a good idea to couple up with one of the excisting Source zombiemod teams.
I think Zombie Master would be pretty excited about getting their hands on shiney models, since their current ones kinda suck.

Code from ZM + Guard model from Ex + altered maps from Ex + Chaos mutant models = hit.

were NOT doing a zombie mod, what chrome is saying is if you REALLY want it then use garys mod to make it happen yourself when we release the mod.

heh that WOULD be cool.. btw program you use to do chars etc? (thinkin of what kinda is to do char like guardsman) and i have to buy HL2 before i can test that garrys mod IG vs zombies :(

XSI, 3d Studio Max or Maya for models. Those are big, fat, expensive, and powerful.

You can also use Milkshape 3d that will satisfy your modeling needs for HL2.
Links:
http://chumbalum.swissquake.ch/ there be Milkshape
http://www.autodesk.com/3dsmax thar is selfexplanatory
http://softimage.com/community/xsi_mod_tool/default.aspx free mod tool whic is based off XSI
http://www.autodesk.com/maya thar is also selfexplanatory

Dont buy anything JUST YET, there are 30-day trials for most of that software, exept the Mod Tool, which is completely free, and made specifically for HL2 modding.

Although it's exceptionally annoying and particularly useless

You can buy a copy of HL2DM for under $10 on steam, which will get you the  source SDK base and let you can play any source mod.

Or you could buy Garry's mod stand-alone, and get the newest edition.
It might be cheaper, but then you wouldn't be able to play Exterminatus...  :roll: