40K Source

Exterminatus - Rival Species 2 => Player Discussion => Topic started by: ChromeAngel on December 31, 2005, 10:44:10 AM



Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on December 31, 2005, 10:44:10 AM
One of the four game modes shortlisted, by the team for Exterminatus - Rival Species 2 (a one week poll to settle this subject will start on January the seventh).

Synapse

++Full Mode Description (http://www.40ksource.com/mode.php?mode=tyranid/synapse)++

Most ambitious of the four modes shortlisted, possibly the most inventive also.  A combination of AI controlled tyranids directed by player controlled monsterous player tyranids, the imperium could be in serious trouble unless they have some seriously heroic players on their side  :twisted:

Questions?  Suggestions?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: JEBUS on January 01, 2006, 03:36:13 AM
This one for sure. I would love to be a huge Nid and controll smaller ones and make them attack the marine. I hope others will support me in this one. The other modes seem a bit dull.

Just think of controlling the antlions in HL2 but as an antlion gaurd. But instead as a huge powerful Tyranid.


Questions:

 Once the AI nids die will they respawn or will the player have to "create" more of them?

Will the AI nids rely on strength or in numbers?


Suggestions:

The player controlled nid should be massive and able to take marines down with one or two hits. Have around 4000 Hp able to heal by eating marines or something. Slow but should have some kind of short sprint/charge attack.

The AI nids should have ALOT of hp but do around 35% of the damage the player ones do. Pretty quick, speed similar to the antlion.

All nids should be weak against fire and explosions. Bullets from the Bolter should do around 3 dmg each.

The 3 commands the the AI nids could be sent by the Player nid is Attack, Move to this area, Defend me or follow me.

Around 4-5 player controlled nids(depending on the amound of players) And 3-4 AI nids each player nid can controll.

Thats about all I can think of.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 01, 2006, 12:07:28 PM
Q)  Once the AI nids die will they respawn or will the player have to "create" more of them?

A) The way i'm thinking of having it work is to have all the nid troops (player and AI) will enter the map by being air-lifted in by a big AI flying nid (*1).  Players that spawn this way will ahve a new brood of AIs spawned with them.  Any surviving players in the drop zone with less than an optimum number of  AIs in thier brood will also recieve reinforcements.

Q) Will the AI nids rely on strength or in numbers?

A) The player nids will be really quite dangerous, i'm aiming for a ratio of 1 synapse creature being worth about the same as 3 tactical marines.  The AIs would be essentialy a meatshield / camoflague / nuisance (to the marines).  Well directed AIs might make a few kills, but it will be the players who are the dangerous component of the tyranid army.  I foresee using the number of AIs in a brood as a balancing tool.

*1)
Something like the Harridan (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/bugswarm.htm), but bigger.  We may have to invent a new strain of tyranid to fulfill this role, unless we can come up with something better.  Mycetic spores were rejectied because of they would build up over time, rather than being recycled.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 01, 2006, 12:59:30 PM
this is, in my opinion, the best playing style!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 01, 2006, 01:39:56 PM
It's this one, or the Genestealer cults. No cooperative, no team-deathmatch.

I think different PC Tyranids should have a different number of minions. For example a Lictor is a master of infiltration and camouflage, it will work alone rather than with the company of minions.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: JEBUS on January 01, 2006, 08:21:40 PM
Thanks for helping me iwth my questions.

Now everyone here needs to vote for Synapse. Other wise it will be a future coop mod.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Alhaus on January 01, 2006, 10:12:12 PM
Or vote synapes and get a 40k NS clone:P


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Typheron on January 01, 2006, 10:17:04 PM
Ah but its not, NS is about a CnC style thing with players, this is not that as theres no overmind dropping things or building things.

Its not NS.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: blackt on January 01, 2006, 11:54:24 PM
i think there should be somekind of hive where the nids are crawling out or taking biomass into... i think it would be fun to see rippers coming out and take the corpses with them...

could also be made to missions... first one is a plain fight nids fast attack strains versus marines... let the fights begin  :wink:

if the marines win they could try to destroy the hive by throwing a meltabomb or two in it... while the tyranids only have i dont know.. some kind of defense class?

if the nids win you have this desperate defense against the big heavy support nids with the AI nids


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 02, 2006, 01:22:27 AM
Quote
Ah but its not, NS is about a CnC style thing with players, this is not that as theres no overmind dropping things or building things.

Its not NS.

yeah, Typh is right. The idea is completely different.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 02, 2006, 03:51:37 PM
Let us observe the differences:
NS E:Synapse
 +   +  Humans marines in heavy armor
 +   +  Different species of aliens
 +  (+) Spaceship fights
 -    +  Cityscape fights
 +   -   Building system
 -    +  AI sidekicks
 -    +  Asymetric balance of players on teams

I guess that was it. 3 similarities, 4 differences  :wink:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 03:53:54 PM
the ratio is diffewrent iswell, NS has fairly even teams, Synapse will be few marines v many nids


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 02, 2006, 04:31:22 PM
migb, in NS the marines haven't an heavy armor and can be killed in a blow or two. Secondarily, there is no building/evolution (and that's a big difference).
You can't say it's similar to NS until we play it: I think that the differences will be fully viewable in game.

Plus, it's 40k!
:P


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 02, 2006, 04:41:20 PM
we are still playing around with how many guants each synapse creature will get.

if each synapse creature has 2 gaunts, that is equal to 3 marines points wise, in which case there wont be more nids then marines!  if we want hoards of smaller gaunts, they are going to have to be as weak as anything in order to balance the game out.  for the full hoard effect we would need to go with the exterminatus game mode.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 02, 2006, 04:42:08 PM
Quote from: "The Vastator"
migb, in NS the marines haven't an heavy armor
They do, if they research and buy heavy armor. HOW heavy the armor is, is really more a detail than a real difference.
Quote from: "The Vastator"
Secondarily, there is no building/evolution (and that's a big difference).
I've already said that.
As my little calculation showed, there are some similarities, and some differences between NS and E:Synapse.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 04:44:42 PM
but who in there right mind is ever going think of comparing NS to 40k


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 02, 2006, 05:19:45 PM
it's like comparing RS1 with Counter Strike.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 05:35:32 PM
yup CS just dnt match up to RS


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 02, 2006, 09:42:49 PM
Then WHAT would you compare it to?
Everything can be compared to something else!
Even though Tolkien was the very first in the Fantasy genre, his works can easily be compared to old myths and legends.

Face it, human marines hunting aliens have been made 1000 times before. The only reason I chose NS to compare it to was that it is actually a HL mod, just like this will be (OK, HL2 mod then).
Other things I could compare it to: Aliens the movies, Alien vs. Preaditor the game, Starship Troopers, Starcraft, even HL2 to an extend. Probably a lot I can't remember or haven't watched.

As I see it, Tyranids are the least original race in W40K, except for the Imperial guard. That means we actually need to focus on making it 40k-like, or risk making it looking too much like one of those other sci-fi worlds I've already mentioned.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 09:59:25 PM
nonon, tyranids were original, remember 40k is around 30 years old now, thats older then HL, aliens all that stuff, SST has aliens, and the books were before 40k, but the aliens in that were very different, then made different in the film, as far as i know, 40k is one of the most original sources of alien races, the only other place i see aliens back then was space invaders!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 02, 2006, 11:13:06 PM
Quote from: "Wolf"
nonon, tyranids were original

I agree, they were original.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 11:15:15 PM
jsut because there are many other things similar nowadays doesnt change the fact the this 40k mod is nothing like anything else, its not NS, its no AvP, its RS2 it has some issues that have never even bin tryed before in games


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 02, 2006, 11:20:13 PM
And I'm not saying it WILL be like those, I'm saying it MIGHT be like those.
I'm just saying: "Be careful not to be too inspired by those other alien/xenos games"


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 02, 2006, 11:21:54 PM
the idea of synapse in my opinion is completely original, ive never heard anything like it for an online game like this, if it works,i hope it works, then its gonna be one down right kick a** mod


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 03, 2006, 11:15:43 AM
I agree. The power of the mod is indeed the faculty of the tyranids to control and command the lesser tyranids. I didn't see anything like that in a multiplayer game.

I can understand, Migb, your toughts: but I think that the devs will difference enought the game from the others.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 01:09:34 PM
Let's discuss numbers, then.
How many synapse creatures of each specie should there be, and how many followers should they have?
It's been suggested that there is 1 synapse creature player for 3 SM players, and that Lictors don't have minions, what about the rest?
I guess we could have Warriors as the "free" class, and Carnifexes (or Tyrants, if they get in the game) as the most restricted class.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 03, 2006, 02:30:03 PM
this is the hardest part of the synapse mode- knowing how to blance it.

it has been worked out using the TT points that 1 tyranid warrior and 2 gaunts is a match for 3 marines,  as soon as there is a carnifex using the same system, you would need a whole squad just for that one player, even without their ai gaunts.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 03:28:36 PM
Hmm... 3 SM players vs 1 Tyranid means 3 marines vs. 3 nids. But 4 SM against 1 would mean 3 marines vs. 5 nids (1 synapse, 4 gaunts). 5 against one means 3 vs. 7 - bring on the horde!  :twisted:
Only problem is that too few would get the chance to play Tyranids - on a 18 player server it would be 15 marines and 3 'Nid players.  :?

Another thing... please informe the point cost of a Devastator marine, assault marine, captain, chaplain and terminators are at.
There got to be some way we can balance this!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 03, 2006, 03:32:36 PM
yeah there has to be a way, the trouble is finding it  :(


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 06:59:45 PM
what are you ona  bout 5v1, u confused me, if its a full 18 man server, it will be 9 marines v 9 player controlled nids, the nids wud have maybe 2 gaunts with each of um, so 9 marines v 27 nids, that sounds good to me


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 07:24:43 PM
Sorry, I think you've missed the point of the game mode.
We are discussing the Synapse mode, which are special in that way that the players will fight alongside AI Tyranid troopers, and special in that aspect that there are NOT equal nr. of players on both teams.
5 vs. 1 means that the teams will autobalance so there are about 5 times as many players on the marine team as the Tyrannid team.

If you want a 1 vs. 1 balance, see the other game modes. I think it's the Tree of life and the Genestealer Cult settings.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 07:26:28 PM
and you miss understand me, haveing an 18 man server, 15 marines v 3 player nids is just stupid, i would rather see the marine outnumbered then they out number the nids


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 07:35:50 PM
But the marines are only outnumbering in terms of players.
There will be about 2 times as many Tyranid units in the game as there are Space Marines, so SM will feel outnumbered, not 'Nids.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 07:42:32 PM
ok outnumbered by stupid gaunts, while u have 15 bolters pounding away


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: blackt on January 03, 2006, 07:53:44 PM
question: if i want to play nids on a full server i have to wait 10 years because its like 3 nids against 15 marines?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 07:54:37 PM
no player teams shell be even like any other game


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 07:59:21 PM
Quote from: "blackt"
question: if i want to play nids on a full server i have to wait 10 years because its like 3 nids against 15 marines?

Yes, and that's the main reason I don't like going 5 vs. 1 instead of 3 vs. 1.

And wolf, you'll only be outnumbered by AI gaunts, right, but you'll still have the huge nasties to worry about  :twisted:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 08:03:02 PM
for one i dnt know what u mean 5v1 3v1, but overall i wud just rather see even teams, 2-3 gaunts for each player nid, SM's get outnumbered, its what they do, but they do not falter!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 08:54:11 PM
The problem is that a Synapse creature can easily match 2 marines.
And if they have AI Gaunts too, SM are going to be wasted, unless there are a lot few players on the 'Nids side.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 03, 2006, 09:00:14 PM
A possible compromise in order to give the number of tyranids without overwhelming the marines was to nurf the Tyranids to approximately half their codex costs.  This makes 1 Tyranid warrior roughly the equal of 1 marine.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 03, 2006, 09:10:38 PM
a possible solution. I don't mind not following the exact cost rules :D


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 09:12:20 PM
plus even if the nids arnt made weaker, it makes the marines work together to win, which is what id like to see


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 03, 2006, 11:38:08 PM
I agree, it's probably the best solution to weaken the synapse creatures a bit, especially the warriors (as they should be the cheap, basic synapse units)

Just an additional idea:
The 'Nid species available should depend on the number of MARINE players.
So if there's an equal number of SM and 'Nids, the SM would face only warriors. Then if 20 marines faced 3 'Nid players, they would all be carnifexes with lots of minions.
That would be a cool feature to balance the teams WITHIN THE ROUND instead of waiting to round end before autoteam balance.  :D


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 03, 2006, 11:55:59 PM
when are u going to see 20 marines v 3 nids, id rather see even teams, and the nids buy bigger bids or new broods with points, and the marines cud buy some better gear, some gear mroe powerful and standing a chance v some of the bigger nids


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 04, 2006, 12:27:49 AM
Quote
The 'Nid species available should depend on the number of MARINE players.
So if there's an equal number of SM and 'Nids, the SM would face only warriors. Then if 20 marines faced 3 'Nid players, they would all be carnifexes with lots of minions.
That would be a cool feature to balance the teams WITHIN THE ROUND instead of waiting to round end before autoteam balance.

great idea!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 04, 2006, 03:42:05 AM
So far people have only listed the balance ratios as normal tactical space marines vs. whatever tyranids. But surely the marines are going to have access to the bigger badder weapons too?

What if some of the space marines were in terminator armour for example? And surely heavy weapons like flamers, missle launchers and heavy plasma guns are going to come into it? This sort of equipment would hike up the cost and strength of the marines.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 04, 2006, 04:35:41 AM
Now that I think about it, will the marines have access to vechiles? Creatures like the carifex and lictor are the tyranid equivalents of vechiles afterall.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: JEBUS on January 04, 2006, 05:48:36 AM
Yes every marine has a set of grenades also.

So I'm sure combat will be 4 marines vs 1 nid and the marines will throw almost or all their nades at the nid. Then the nid comes chargin and the 4 marines open their bolter,heavybolter,rockets.

The nids need to be REALLY strong. Or it will be one bug killin fest.

It should be 4 marines for every nid. And the AI nids will pretty much be there for distracting the marines or killing weak/hurt marines.

So before you say OMG NIDS WILL BE TO STRONG! Think about all the grenades marines have, Rockets, heavybolter, laserguns, bikes, and any other weapon I forgot about.

Plus I'm sure the marines will Respawn, throw nades, shoot, die and then repeated over and over again till the Nid or Nids are dead.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: blackt on January 04, 2006, 06:36:02 AM
i think if there are carnifexes and tyrants there should also be terminators and maybe even a cybot :-D *wishfulthinking*


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 04, 2006, 11:16:42 AM
Yes, the problems about Tyranids being too strong surely means that heavy weapons and Terminators should be available to the Marines.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 04, 2006, 11:55:04 AM
heavy weapons yes, but so far we have not planned to include terminators.  we were going along the lines of a tactical squad as they are very flexible


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 01:04:19 PM
so far the main weps for marines are bolter, heavy bolter, melta gun and last is a inferno pistol and chainsword combo, all of them have nades and knives and pistols to help um, but thats all i see that is needed tbh, yea carnys r big, lictors r scary, warriors r ugly and thropes have big heads, dnt mean the marines need vehicles or termys to ebat them, any1 here ever tried winning on skill and not giant suit of armor called termy armor


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 04, 2006, 01:23:28 PM
Quote from: "Wolf"
any1 here ever tried winning on skill and not giant suit of armor called termy armor

No, never (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-12/1123122/ultra-smile.gif)

What I was saying were, the reason the Terms were pulled out was because they would beat the crap out of the Tyranids.
Now it seems like it's the SM that are going to get their ass kicked, so sending A FEW Terms back in might balance the fact that SM are facing a nid group that both outnumbers them and are lead by scary Synapse-creatures.

There are three ways to balance the point-problem, so marines still are outnumbered and all nids players are playing Synapse-creatures.
1. Have very few nids players - about 1 per 5 marines
2. Let marines have Terminators
3. Make Synapse creatures weaker than in the books

But of cause a way to do it was to wait and see, if team-balance OK do nothing, SM always loose -> Terminators.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 01:25:12 PM
the only reason their i remotely like is making the synapses a bit weaker then TT, which i think will be the case, as a SM i like being outnumbered and i have never liked termys tbh
marines arnt that weak comapred to big nids, ur not going to be standing in the middle of a road reloading while a carny runs up to u r ya? its a city citys with ruins and outposts, marines move from building to buildings ambushing the synapse creatures so the broods are left hive mindless


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 04, 2006, 03:46:12 PM
Personally I think some of the chunkier weapons are in order for the marines, if the teams are going to have equal numbers of human players. Terminators are one possibility, but they're not the only one. Vehciles are another, as are exotic wargear. Also, I believe some marines can carry a device called an auspex, which works much like a motion sensor ala the movie Aliens. That could give the marines an edge.

I'll add one thing to migb's list:

4. All maps greatly favour the marine players...

Wolf has brought up an interesting point: what happens to a synapse creature's underlings when it dies?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 04:06:15 PM
they either dispear when no1s looking, run off or maybe another synapse creature with a half alive brood can take them and make his brrod full again


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 04, 2006, 04:41:54 PM
Let's have some natural behavior.
When they see an enemy there should be equal chances that they flee, attack or stand and look stupid. If they stand still, they will make their mind up once the SM starts shooting at them. They should also wander about.
A Synapse creature should be able to "redirect" the creature, no matter how many minions it already have. There is a risk that someone could collect a huge army of gaunts then, but as they should be relatively easy to kill, I don't think that will be a problem.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 04, 2006, 06:12:00 PM
and there is always the chance that the marine who killed the synapse creature doesnt want any critters to live so continues to kill the remaining gaunts...i know i wouldnt give them mercy!


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: zenarion on January 04, 2006, 06:37:04 PM
This is quite a problem actually. Personally, i'd rather see myself as a Nid warrior/fex with 20 followers: gaunts and rippers. When i march through the ruined city i see my pets swarming around me, jumping ontop boxes, climbing walls to some extent. Then, i see 10 marines walking out of a dark alley. The first thing i do, is i make my pets charge the marines, and attach them with a Venomcannon or whatever Chrome feels like giving me. The marines divide their attacks on me and the bots. after a few marines are slaughtered, but also my swarm is, i fold out my whip, my sword and my scythe tail. And take on the marines.

Yes definetly, there would be many marines versus not so many tyranid players. but i think that it's worth it. marines could get expensive classes and follow bots too. a servoscull suicide bomber would be nice to have around. and nifty powersword + combat shield combo to fight nids in CC.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 09:01:59 PM
this is a situation where the nids survive but the synapse nid dont
the carni is walking down the street with his lil niddy mates, then atop the church tower, a dark figure emerges, he leaps from the buildings onto the carny the carny struggles to get the amrine off, the marine unloads his bolter into the carny's skull, jsut before the carny blacks out for good it swipes at the marines bolter hand taking off the marines hand the marine stumbles and falls of the back of the carny, the carny black out and falls backwards, the marine goes smush
in the end marine smushed under carny, lil gaunts standing there going wtf?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: zenarion on January 04, 2006, 09:38:02 PM
this means that the AI nids need to be more effective?
and i do not think that a Fex would walk around without enchanced sences.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 09:42:47 PM
nob but fex's are like dogs ! they cnt look directly up! therefore not seeing the marine jump onto him, plus the lil nids didnt wanna hurt the fex killing the marine and left it to it, thinking that a single marine is nothing to a carny


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: JEBUS on January 04, 2006, 09:45:00 PM
Quote from: "zenarion"
This is quite a problem actually. Personally, i'd rather see myself as a Nid warrior/fex with 20 followers: gaunts and rippers. When i march through the ruined city i see my pets swarming around me, jumping ontop boxes, climbing walls to some extent. Then, i see 10 marines walking out of a dark alley. The first thing i do, is i make my pets charge the marines, and attach them with a Venomcannon or whatever Chrome feels like giving me. The marines divide their attacks on me and the bots. after a few marines are slaughtered, but also my swarm is, i fold out my whip, my sword and my scythe tail. And take on the marines.




Ok what you are saying is you want every player Nid to basically have an army, which I understand. But also remeber that this is a game ON THE INTERNET so lets say we have 6 player nids. Now lets do 6 times 20 which is 120 bots plus the 6 players. Then lets say you have 18 marines on the other team. It just keeps adding and adding up. This would probably make the game extremely laggy and unfit to play.

Player nids shouldn't have more than 3 AI partners. And these AI nids should have the same HP as a marine buy only do 35% of the damage a player nid dose. An a player nid should be able to kill a marine in 1-2 hits. So lets say marines have 125 Hp, the player nid should do around 115 and after that the 3 AI nids should be able to kill it easy.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: zenarion on January 04, 2006, 09:45:42 PM
that is a "what if" scenario actually.

i suggest that a marine and tyranid warrior class are finished, and gaunt bots are added. then testers would see what number of gaunts would be sufficient.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 04, 2006, 11:05:30 PM
Let us stay with that.

Btw. how many and which Tyranid classes needs to be finished in the first beta?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 04, 2006, 11:18:10 PM
from what i kno there will be a fex thrope warrior and lictors for players and both gaunts as AI, but im thinking about making a ripper swarm


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 05, 2006, 12:01:47 AM
I am pissed off by the fact that there is no list telling what models are actually in progress...


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 05, 2006, 12:52:37 AM
ask chrome wen u next see him in IRC


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Typheron on January 05, 2006, 02:23:17 AM
well there is a list, but you have to be a Dev member to see it is all.


IRC and ask chrome is, as wulf said, the best way to find out what needs done.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 05, 2006, 12:33:57 PM
Quote from: "Typheron"
well there is a list, but you have to be a Dev member to see it is all.

Well, that's very interresting, and I have a lot of thoughts about that one statement. I think I've heard it somewhere on the IRC channel before, so it is not compleate news to me. Instead of bombarding you with all the questions, thoughts and comments I have to this statement, I shall ask one short question: "Why"  :?:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Typheron on January 05, 2006, 01:15:50 PM
Control.

Our mod and we want to know who is doing what and why. If youo want to model something for us you have to ask one of them team members.

You also have to prove you can model so we know that were gonna get something useable.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 06, 2006, 10:52:25 AM
There have been a discussion of an "all is equal"-mode of Synapse on IRC.
Since those who proposed the mode didn't post it here, I will.
The idea is to have an equal number of players on each team. Also, all classes should be equally strong, for both marines and Tyranids. The 'Nids are still playing Synapse creatures with gaunt minions (2-3 per player).
So a Carnifex should be so slow and lumbering that even though it have 10x the health and strength of a marine, it will not be more efficient, because it's easy to advoid. A lictor should have little health, to make up for its camouflage and killing power. Zonathropes should also be quite easy to kill, focusing on long-range shooting. Warriors should be the all-rounder.
And of cause the heavy/special weapons of the marines should be so slow/hard to use that they are not superior to a bolter.

There have also been talks of having just 1 über 'nid (Fex, Tyrant or Zoan - changeble in round), AI-controlled, while players play Warriors or something.

And a suggestion for having half the 'Nid team wait to spawn. Like the first suggestion, this was proposed to allow clans of equal numbers to compete.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Razielk on January 06, 2006, 11:24:48 AM
that was the jist of it, but it is by no means finalised in any way, shape or form!  we are still considering pitfalls in it incomparison to the original brief for this mode.

i will try to clarify it a bit as i see it.

the number of players on each team is equal,  and each tyranid player has 2 or 3 gaunts (we will have to play around with the numbers when balancing if it gets through).  that means if there are 10 players per side it will be 10 marines vs 30 or 40 tyranids (10 players, 20 or 30 AI gaunts) which will give us more of the swarm effect that people seem to be wanting.

The balancing for each class and weapon would be equal, as migb said, so everything has the same "killing potential".  so also as migb said: a carnifex would have 10x the health and strength of a marine, but will be slow and lumbering, so is also inkeeping with the fluff.

also the gaunts in this version are more a substitute for the marines wargear, where the most basic marine has a bolter, bolt pistol, grenades and a knife.  so instead of throwing a grenade into a room before you enter it, the nids would order the gaunts in to draw fire/kill something/act as a meat shield.

again i will say that this version is not finalised in any way, and can change even more.  at present it is not replacing the original idea but now it is open for discussion so tell us what you think  :)


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 06, 2006, 11:04:05 PM
well the thing is interesting, even more if, as I proposed, could be implemented marine "classes", each one with its "special ability" (all the same power)in order to have some differences.
But I don't like this:
Quote
And of cause the heavy/special weapons of the marines should be so slow/hard to use that they are not superior to a bolter.

if they're not superior to a bolter they will never get used, unless you meant that to bring down a big carnifex you need a rocket launcher, but this rocket launcher would be almost useless against faster nyds.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Typheron on January 07, 2006, 12:39:02 AM
i think whats ment by that is that each weapon has a strenth and a weakness.

Take the Missle Launcha, it will be capable of delivering a frag round and doing damage over a area. But its gonna take a little while to reload and you have to deploy it.

The bolter cant do blast damage like the ML, but has a bigger clip and a shorter reload time, although its bullets dont do as much damage as a single ML round.

Balanced by things like that, although i dont like the way its been worded here, unless thats what you really mean Raz and then i dont like that concept at all.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 07, 2006, 12:53:47 AM
yeah Typh, that's what I wanted to say.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 07, 2006, 11:30:48 AM
What I don't like about this setting is this:
All Synapse creatures are supposed to be stronger than a Marine. In all aspects, both toughness, speed and weapon damage.
But if the Tyranids have 1 Synapse creature per SM player AND a swarm of gaunts, the Synapse creatures actually needs to be weaker than a SM...

I know, someone will say that "no, the SM are weaker, 'cause then they will have to work together as a TEAM". But hey, the Tyrnaids can work together as a team also, just as efficient as the SM.
If anyone have gameplay suggestions that will make SM teamplay more efficient than Tyranid, go ahead.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 07, 2006, 11:58:14 AM
I have been persuaded that TT marines are under-priced compared to their actual effectiveness.  Compared to warriors the marines are roughly equal.

The way i'm currently  planning to balance it is that Tyranid players will get either a Warrior OR a brood of Termagaunts (with the hive node biomod) as their base class.  If their are more marine players (which I suspect their will be) the tyranid players will recieve extra gaunts when they respawn to balance it out.

If you are worried about some of the synapse creatures being way more powerfull than marines, dont worry, the tyranid players will have to work harder to earn those reward classes than marines will to get theres.  Specificly you will see melta guns about twice as often as zoanthropes.

Although the DoD style "balanced sets" sounds a good idea, I dont feel the classes for this mode can be balanced in this way.  If you think balanced sets are more important that monsterous tyranids vote "Genestealer Cult War".


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 07, 2006, 12:00:56 PM
You could always have a player, or number of players that are sargents or banner bearers, who give all marines within a certain radius various combat boosts. Problems abound with this though. How do you select such a player? What if they are a noob or just an idiot who wants to ruin the game for the rest?

Just had another thought: what if the marines accumulate 'experience points' as they fight? Not just for killing things, but just being alive, over time, the points build up. When they respawn, they can spend the points on heavy weapons and other gear. When they die, and go back to the normal bolter kit until they build up enough points again.

This way, the heavy weapons can be really worthwhile, and superior to the bolters, but you'll never have a situation where all the marines are packing heavy weapons, and there are no bolters.

Just a thought. I think that could work quite well.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 07, 2006, 12:11:01 PM
From experience I can tell you if you give players rewards for doing nothing but staying alive their is a tendendcy for them to do nothing, they just lurk about in the shadows and dont play the game, which isnt fun.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 07, 2006, 12:16:24 PM
Yeah, and I'll like to bring up my earlier suggestion again.
You only earn points while being a standart marine (bolter), resulting in about halt the SM team being standart marines at all times.

The same thing could be done with Tyranids. You have to play as a gaunt swarm to gather points for synapse creatures. This would lessen the problem that noone wants to play gaunt, 'cause they're too weak compared to a SM.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 07, 2006, 01:08:49 PM
That's a good idea migb, that way you won't have any marines building up a heap of points from their heavy weapon stint and simply buying another when they respawn.

As for giving points for nothing, it has to be balanced correctly. So long as kills are still worth a good chunk of points (say 30 to 60 seconds worth?) the players will still be motivated to get into the action when they have only a bolter. The reason I suggested having points accumulate with time is so that even newbies can get a shot with the heavy weapons, not just the more skilled and experienced players.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 07, 2006, 01:15:22 PM
but. Ozy, as Chrome said, if you give points just for staying alive, you'll see a lot of campers.
How about points for objectives?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 07, 2006, 01:22:41 PM
Points for objectives yes, in fact this will probably be the main source of rewards.  We can make it like RS, so that expensive reward classes can earn some points, but they have to work just as hard to earn them as other classes.

for example :
Tactical marine gets 1 point per point of damage done
Devestator marine gets 1 point per 10 damage done

Of course these ratios will have to be gauged and tweeked during testing.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 07, 2006, 01:30:42 PM
I say the same as Ozy.
Points should be awarded for both kills and staying alive, enabeling newbs to go heavy once in a while, and advoiding campers.
One other thing, maybe staying-alive points should only be given when people are standing somewhere useful. In close range to a teammate (or two), or in short range of an objective, acting as guard.

The Tyranids should have a more rushing approach to points. Instead of points for staying alive, the gaunts should be awarded points for being near a Synapse creature when it kills marines. And of cause also for own frags and capturing objectives.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 07, 2006, 01:40:02 PM
I don't like the stay-alive-get-points thing, since I really think that we'll have lots of campers, impairing the game, even considering what you're saying, Migb. Instead of a solitary camper we'll have a couple of campers, maybe camping in a point in wich you get points.
About what you say about Tyranids, that could be a good idea.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 07, 2006, 01:45:22 PM
Hey, if the Marines also got points for nearby kills, that would surely encourage teaming up, give points to newbs and discourage campers.
Why didn't I think of that in the first place  :roll:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 07, 2006, 03:05:26 PM
I think points based on the amount of damage done by each player would be a better idea. That way you'll live longer by teaming up, but you won't have 'groupies' following the good players around for no reason other than leaching off their kills.

As for campers, like I said, just balance it so the majority of points come from kills. Alternatively, just have the points accumulate over time, regardless of whether the marine is alive or in the spawn queue.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: ChromeAngel on January 07, 2006, 03:10:05 PM
Quote from: "Ozymandias"
As for campers, like I said, just balance it so the majority of points come from kills. Alternatively, just have the points accumulate over time, regardless of whether the marine is alive or in the spawn queue.


If we did that the chances of a whole bunch of people getting an upgrade at the same time goes up dramaticly.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Ozymandias on January 07, 2006, 04:34:24 PM
Quote from: "ChromeAngel"

If we did that the chances of a whole bunch of people getting an upgrade at the same time goes up dramaticly.


Only if the points accumulating over time are large compared to those gained from kills. If the kills are the larger source of points, which I think they should be, then people will be purchasing upgrades at varying times depending on their skill and luck. Also, assuming different upgrades have different costs, and not everyone wants the same upgrade, some staggering should occur.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: zenarion on January 07, 2006, 09:25:01 PM
if a player stays alive for a whole round, he should be rewarded for that.
also, the idea of Double Kill, Multi Kill and Ultra Kill. getting more points if you kill players in a sequence. other names than those from UT could be used, or just extra points could be given. i cannot see why the top nid could be called "Devourer" or something :)

rewards could be voted for. if several players see an other one being really good in combat, they might want to boost his power, by donating points to him or something. an "Emperor's Champion" can be elected in that way :)


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: The Vastator on January 08, 2006, 12:16:22 AM
Quote
also, the idea of Double Kill, Multi Kill and Ultra Kill. getting more points if you kill players in a sequence. other names than those from UT could be used, or just extra points could be given

blah, that's too arcade, and besides that, it seems that every mod/fps game have something like that.
RS2, in my opinion, should focus on tactics and such, not on who's got the bigger gun or pulls the trigger faster.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 08, 2006, 04:34:30 PM
Double/ultra-kill - no, you'll be getting enough points by performing the kills. Also, it will discourage people from running in teams, as it's harder getting multi in teams than while running alone. It might be an option for Tyranids, but certainly not for Marines.

I really don't think the "elect a champion" would work. I see a chat channel, where 9 in 10 messages are from people that tries to convince the others that they should be elected champion. You know, that sort of things happens often in NS.  :cry:

Quote
but you won't have 'groupies' following the good players around for no reason other than leaching off their kills.

I don't see this as a problem at all. I guess we all want the players to go where the action is, and where is the action? Where the good players go.
So hurray for groupies!  :D
I could easily see that a person with a heavy weapon could have problems finding someone to guard him while reloading, but now if the guards got points for his kills, that would not be a problem. And, you should of cause get more points for your own kills than for being nearby an ally that scores a frag. I say aim so a medium-skilled gamer during the game gets an equal number of points from his own kills and the teams kills.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 08, 2006, 07:04:06 PM
oh so does this mean when im a marine, im gonna have 5-10 people following me around ^^


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Typheron on January 08, 2006, 07:11:25 PM
yes, all of them trying to kill you


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 08, 2006, 07:13:35 PM
yea, they probly heard that if they eat my heart they gain all my honor and strengths


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: migb on January 08, 2006, 08:24:00 PM
Quote from: "Wolf"
yea, they probly heard that if they eat my heart they gain all my honor and strengths

That would be my next gampley suggestion  :wink:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on January 08, 2006, 09:04:17 PM
ur next gameplay suggestion is for people to eat my heart and gain all my honor and strengths  :shock:


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Neoviper on September 22, 2006, 05:24:20 AM
Seeing as how this topic is going a bit off, i'll suggest something.

Most people think the nids are going to be imbalanced because they're better than marines and they get gaunts. so maybe you only get gaunts as a warrior, and when you upgrade to carnifex or zoanthrope, you have to stay by yourself or with a warrior with some gaunts. im thinking this would balance because the carnifex would have massive armor, making him not need gaunts for protection. and the zoanthrope will normally be using ranged weapons and not need a gaunt shield. as for the normal warriors, if the warrior at a decent skill level would be able to take on two marines at once, with 2 or three distraction nids, then it should balance out.

On the marine side, giving them points for being in a group would be making it very similar to NS combat. not exactly the same but not sticking to the unique genre style you guys have going. lots of points for kills, and points for damaging sounds good, although you would have to give less for a gaunt than a player controlled warrior. to balance out the noob factor, maybe have a exclusivly upward curce, where if you dont get kills for a certain amount of time, then the damage you do gives you more points.

This is my first post so im just trying to contribute, i apologize if im breaking any rules, or if these suggestions wouldnt work for some reason or anyother.

Ok, just wanted to say this mod is looking great in just about every way i can think of, just go with synapse and it cant go wrong given a little playtesting and balancing.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on September 22, 2006, 01:26:21 PM
hi, and welcome to EX, pretty good for a first post, the number of gaunts etc. has not been decided yet, we are going tow ait till beta stages, sow e can test the game and how it plays, if 4 nids is maybe to much, well try 3 etc. also we can change their stats, say 1 shot 1 kill from a bolter, maybe 2 is reasonable. The nids are going for the crazed CC attack, witht he exception of the Warriors DeathSpitter and Termagaunt Fleshborer, the marines are going for tactical squad, with some awesome weapons  :twisted: . but we cant honestly say how many of this there will be, how strong that is gonna be, how many of these does it take to kill this on average, it will all be dealt with during testing  :)


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Khargoth on October 06, 2006, 09:57:50 AM
Perhaps have a varying number? Now, don't get me wrong and think I'm suggesting that the 1337 players lose their gaunt shields, more on the other end of the scale, newbies that aren't scoring too well can spawn a small horde of the little buggers. I agree that the 'fex and Zoanthrope should not have access to gaunt shields, this encourages players to consider taking the Warrior class, so that the SM aren't fighting lots of Carnifexes and Zoanthropes, which would not be fun.

I like the idea of shared kills, perhaps have a 'squad' menu at the beginning, much the same as the team selection for Garry's Mod 9, where you share kill scores for the other members of your squad while in relatively close proximity. This should limit the 'groupie' factor (I'm talking extreme cases of about 10 marines leeching kills off of 2-3 good people) and encourage team tactics ("Ok, your squad goes that way, we'll go this way").

Comments?


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: zenarion on October 09, 2006, 09:32:21 AM
Sounds like a good idea. And it will for sure boost Wulf's "last-stand-o-meter" to see his comrades die one by one next to him.


Title: Mode Discussion - Synapse
Post by: Wolf on October 09, 2006, 05:34:38 PM
8)  i like the term last-stand-o-meter
finally my dreams have become wildly known through out the forum