Darktimes experiences on a 20 people server. suggestions.

[darktimes]

awesome. I am not a Warhammer fan, in fact I despise and look down on it because of the cheesy armor and huge guns. but this game is a beautiful masterpiece. the gameplay feels right, the controls are easy and intuitive, THERE IS NO LAG, even on a completely filled server (RESPECT), and I fell in love with both tyrans and marines.

however, while playing several larger games on every map this awesome mod can offer, I found several important, imbalanced things that could easily be tweaked, I know the game is build for a basic 4vs4, or 6vs6, and not a 10vs10, but there is the meat, if you ask me.

now, the first thing you will notice after joining such a server: marines are stacked. often there are twice more marines than aliens, AND THAT IS JUST WRONG. when i see a 8 vs 16, I could puke. and if someone is kindly enough to switch teams, you can be certain that another one of YOUR team changes to marines. why?

basically, the marines will slaughter the aliens in any way, simply because they have ranged. the basic marine gets more average kills than the best warrior on your team, simply because he works with other marines to tear trough the entire enemy team, earning them a promotion. making things even worse when there are 5 heavies supported by tactics and specialists. I am going to every class now and suggest simple number changes.

Tactical marine:
the basic Marine, armed with knife (useless), pistol, rifle and granades.
to be fair, I don't have any problems with the common marine, except one: he's well rounded, sometimes too well rounded. why does he have a pistol? for close quarters, but there he's supposed to suck, there is where the veteran should shine. there is where the Tyrans should Rip you from limb to limb, if you can't dish out enough damage with your rifle till he's up to you he deserves your kill.

Veteran:
the lost child, the never seen bundle of code and textures, his pistol is weak, his chainsword stupid. the speed increase insignificant. basically he's a tactical marine who traded his trusty, reliable rifle with an sword. while fighting tyrannids, no less. I haven't played him. I died 2 seconds in battle, by a normal warrior, great way to waste your points you could have spent on a specialist, right?
but lets be serious here, the veteran is in need of a heavy buff, something that makes him compete with the melee hordes of aliens. how about a charge, where he's in budda mode and slaying and chainsawing his way through fiends? or just make him an assault, the flight would make enough of a buff.

Specialist:
he's the guy with the flamethrower, a weapon that makes any charging aliens into ashes. well, the weapon has ridiculous levels of damage, but its over time, so I killed some of them a few times. the problem is when there are two of them cooperating. even mighty giant aliens will go down in a few seconds in the weapon fire. I don't have any idea what to suggest, the class itself is fine and balanced, but a horde of them makes the tyran warriors cry.

Heavies:
the main problem with heavies is that they put awesome damage, awesome health and relative accuracy together, with only a few, slightly, 'annoying' pay offs. once again, the heavy is fine by itself, but if you sneak up to one as victor, and then get killed by three shots, I repeat, only three shots, that is unbearable. they get hundreds of kills, meaning that even if you kill them, in 20 seconds you will see them again. that sorta takes away from the feeling you just 'won', and makes capturing points almost impossible late game. we seen it in the RTS, why not make them deploy, or else they don't hit a barn.

Warrior:
he simply lacks. it isn't much, but his problem could, if solved, solve all other problems: his melee is fine, but his basic ranged attack, alias, the only ranged attack except the MINDCRUSH of Mr. floating brain, is too weak. I don't say that because I can't hit anything, I don't say that because I didn't figure it out how to aim it, but the effect, the actual damage has the power to a wasp sting. a wasp sting to a marine wearing 2 tons of armor. i know aliens are melee, and that they already have a superior ranged, area attack, I don't say make them like a rifle shot, just buff them that 5 of the parasites can kill a marine.  another thing is the slow speed. a warrior moves as fast as a marine, and that is wrong. just because they're big doesn't mean they're slower, that probably means they are faster. also it makes life of a marine more challenging, shortens boring walking times, gives opportunity to charge or rush marines.

Victor. eh. Lictor.
a perfectly fine class, but it will become pretty hard to hide when people get experience: make the lictor smaller please, circa the size of a marine, so that he truly can flank them, using their own tunnels, accessing ways others can not. the same speed problem as the warrior is here. he's just too slow for my taste.

giant. I forgot his complicated name, so whatever.
perfectly fine. just.. Is the zoomed view desired? I look trough a fisheye, it doesn't bother me that much, just strange..

floating brain. Zoan.. right?
the only problem I have with my favority alien, the awesome pinacle of destruction and bone crushing, his only tools his magnificent mind, is that he's too tall. I have to crouch every time for no apparent reason, or because of the pipe over me. Navigating in Hive is bothersome. maybe make him a slightly bit shorter, nothing much. and how about you give him the ability to jump REALLY high, and REALLY slow, to give the idea of him floating up there. with no fall damage FFS. he's floating, he's never going to touch the floor, he's in constant state of levitation.

[ChromeAngel]

Thanks for taking the time to write up such a detailed review.  We never really got a chance to test EX on such a large scale before the open beta, so it's helpful to have this kind of feedback.

In defense of the veteran, his "minor" speed buff is actually a lot more useful that it might first appear when you take into account the rewards you and your team get for capping an objective.  The combo weapon isn't a trade in at all, the veteran also gets a bolter just like the tactical marine (weapon slot #3). On top of this veterans also get double the number of grenades (the only blast area weapon on the marine team ATM), which can be quite handy against massed nids.  This makes the veteran class subtly better than the tactical marine in almost all respects.  I hope i've sold you on trying this class a few more times before writing him off as a waste of points.

Heavies are awesome aren't they   However they still have the same health and armor as the cheapest tactial marine and will die just as easily.

The recommended technique with the warriors gun, the deathspitter (DS), is to sap the enemy gradually, to use the acid splash to make the enemy keep to cover while you advance to talon range.  The DS is an inherently inaccurate weapon if you need accuracy standing still and crouching will improve your aim (this is true of all range weapons in EX).   Warriors basic movement speed is faster than a tactical marine at full sprint, it might appear slow, but this is only because the warriors eye level is so far above the ground.  This speed difference gives warriors a basic advantage in capping the initial objectives.

The zoanthropes brain/skull/carapace extends much further above his eye level than is proportional on a human of his height, that's what is getting stuck so often.   The design of the 'thropes anatomy is something we're kind of stuck with to be true to the source material.  A high jump would introduce mapping issues, but a low gravity fall might be doable.

[darktimes]

thanks for the warm reply.

I tried the veteran again, and Have to change my view on him. he's a good choice if you like the tactical marine, but not the heavies slowness or the short range of the specialist. he's fine.

Heavies are awesome aren't they   However they still have the same health and armor as the cheapest tactial marine and will die just as easily.

Jes, I love playing with them.  nothing better to wait behind some boxes and shoot the poor lictor in the back as he moves past you.
hmm. they have the same health, and are slower, but still rip everything apart, with halfway accuracy and high ROF. the Marines main balancing problem is their sheer firepower when there are 4- 5 heavies on the same spot, while not hindering objective progress, as others do it.

The recommended technique with the warriors gun, the deathspitter (DS), is to sap the enemy gradually, to use the acid splash to make the enemy keep to cover while you advance to talon range.  The DS is an inherently inaccurate weapon if you need accuracy standing still and crouching will improve your aim (this is true of all range weapons in EX).   Warriors basic movement speed is faster than a tactical marine at full sprint, it might appear slow, but this is only because the warriors eye level is so far above the ground.  This speed difference gives warriors a basic advantage in capping the initial objectives.

to the warrior: the problem is that most marines just run out in the open, instead of staying in one place, and Aliens + open is a stupid idea. on a 24 man server, there are just too many marines, and too many shots in the air to use that tactic. while you're sapping someone, three friends will flank you.
I already knew of the small increased speed of the warrior, I just say that it hinders the enemy from getting away, thats good, but it isn't fast enough to retreat, or close medium distances quickly enough to get on the slashing and hacking without resembling a swiss cheese once you get to them.

The zoanthropes brain/skull/carapace extends much further above his eye level than is proportional on a human of his height, that's what is getting stuck so often.   The design of the 'thropes anatomy is something we're kind of stuck with to be true to the source material.  A high jump would introduce mapping issues, but a low gravity fall might be doable.

well, I'm not posting here without reading the other threads, so I already knew that. I wasn't referring that I dump into stuff because I thought the height is on eyelevel, I was referring to the coded fact that the hitbox is even taller then the Fex, and that's just wierd. sleeker, yes, but taller?

Warrior : 60 wide x 60 deep x 128 tall
Zoanthrope : 40 wide x 40 deep x 224 tall
Lictor : 60 wide x 60 deep X 160 tall
Carnifex : 148 wide x 148 deep X 175 tall
Marine : 32 wide x 32 deep x 72 tall

isn't 224 a bit over the top? why not settle for 200? still taller then the carnifex, but not as hindering.

but of course I'm only playing this game for 2 days, so I should Test it some more, get experienced with the warrior and other classes before I start building my theories and suggestions of my own imagination of how the game is. however, autobalance would still be nice.

[ChromeAngel]

Auto balance is coming.   I'll think about buffing the deathspitter in the same patch to make it less painful.

[cowz with gunz]

I would really love a devouorer.

[Synapse Creature Xthalis]

The problem with the deathspitter, especially when there is 8+ marines, is that the marines will literally wade THROUGH your fire because it isn't really effective enough, and 8 warriors rushing 8 marines doesn't seem to work...it seems the warrior is always cut down in a hail of fire.  Also, do heavies really do more damage AND have a higher ROF?  I think thats dumb if they do, it is just too powerful that way because even if a warrior is practically on top of the heavy the heavy will still shoot the Warrior down before he gets a chance to kill the marine, 3 shots is a little too powerful...

[darktimes]

the heavy would be perfectly balanced if he would have to deploy his weapon, or else he will shot aimlessly into the sky. deploying should be fast and easy, nothing but 2- 3 seconds, so that he's a powerhouse in defending, but vulnerable on the move.

I am grateful to see people agree with me. like I said before I never was into WH40k much, I don't even heard of Tyranids before I stumbled onto this site a year ago. so I can't really comment on additional classes or special factions, just the basics. I am a believer of simplicity, Make a handful, simple, easy, good, adaptable things, instead of hundreds of unbalanced, flawed features.

[Mingus]

The biggest problem atm that I've noticed isn't so much the need for a heavy to deploy (though that would be nice) its the fact that on some maps, theres that one botttle neck that marines camp with heavies until everyone's got a heavy (which a setup wont affect). This, however, is very situational and will probably be less of an issue when more maps become playable.
Still, the heavy definitely needs a setup time or damage nerf. It's more like a rapid fire lascannon than a heavy bolter at the moment. I was able to gun down a carnifex and 3 warriors just by moving backwards and dakkkkkkaaaadakadaka. Granted it was on the open plains but a corner wouldn't do that much better as the HB's damage at point blank is insane.

[BunnyMind]

(I should point out that I wrote most of this out before finding this thread, so some of it may be similar to the OP, and it's even in the same basic format :o)

I just happened upon this mod the other day and decided to try it out. I must say I'm very impressed with it. The models and maps are a much higher quality than I had initially expected going in and the gameplay is fun and easy to get in to. Of course, the game is not without flaws, though I just know there's a diamond waiting to shine beneath it all, it just needs some polishing, and while I'm no mapper or coder, I figure I can help out with some feedback at least.

The first, most noticeable thing (and I know everyone already knows this) is that everyone always piles onto the Ultrasmurf team at the beginning of a game. That said, I actually don't have much of a problem with this, given that the teams generally balance out somewhat as the game progresses and I prefer 'Nids anyway. I also feel that I should add that the game is actually pretty balanced with an Ultrasmurf bias, given how quickly they die in CQC and their reliance on teamwork and numbers to take down the 'Nids before they can close to melee range (actually now that I think about it, it sounds more like I'm fighting Guardsmen than Spess Mehrens, but that's neither here nor there).

The second biggest problem before I get to the classes is that the objective of a match is not always very clear. There seem to be a lot of instances where nobody knows what each team is really supposed to be doing further than killing the other team and advancing. For example, in a recent game on ex_lycantium (hope I got that right) the 'Nids had pushed the Ultrasmurf team to their last point where we entered a standoff and the two teams were pretty much running at each other in the entrance to the large courtyard. Evidently, the 'Nids have to destroy the large ship looking thing in the silo at the far end of the courtyard, but nobody on our team knew that, and I'm pretty sure none of the Ultrasmurfs knew that either, considering they had zero guys guarding it (I feel I should also add that it's extremely easy for a single lictor to sneak in and wreck it while nobody's looking, assuming they know they're supposed to).

Anyway, onto the teams. Note that my experience is mostly based off of the game from the 'Nid perspective.

Tactical Marine:
The tactical is probably the most balanced class in my opinion. They're a good, well rounded class with decent fighting ability and equipment to handle most situations they come across. One of the best things about them is that you don't feel like you're getting screwed when you respawn as one, making it a good base class.

Veteran Marine:
Honestly, the veterans just seem like a waste of points to me. What I'm getting is that they're basically tacticals with somewhat better close range fighting ability, though they still pale in comparison to the specialist. Whenever I see a veteran, I treat it like I would any tactical, with the exception that most veterans run around with their close range weapons out, making them much easier to close with and kill. Personally, I'd give the veteran a small buff of some sort to distinguish them from the tacticals and the specialists.

Specialist Marine:
First of all, I'd like to state that beakies are the best and you guys are awesome for including them. Other than that, however, I don't really have much to say about them. They're certainly powerful and dangerous, but it's offset by their short range, so I wouldn't call them overpowered or anything.

Heavy Marine:
I'm going to come right out and say it: the heavy is very overpowered. Combine the range of a bolter, the damage output of a melta, and the fire rate of a squad of tacticals, and you have one hell of a recipe for 'Nid tears. The only effective way of killing heavies seems to be sneaking up behind them as a lictor, being that they're the slowest and so usually at the back of a moving squad. However, the fact that they can rack up huge amounts of kills means that even if you manage to kill one, he's coming right back. Now I personally don't think making them mount their guns before firing would change the problem at all, and it certainly wouldn't be accurate to the fluff, but something definitely needs to be done about these guys.

Warrior:
A very bad unit. Warriors are essentially lictors minus the stealth ability. The spitwads or paperclips or whatever it is that the warrior's gun shoots do laughable amounts of damage compared to the bolters that they're competing against. You could theoretically say that the rubberband gun is used to soften the target as you close with them, but the claws kill within a couple hits anyway, so all you really end up doing is drawing attention to yourself. The only thing the warrior seems to be very good at is using their minor speed advantage to rush opponents around corners. Personally, I'm against buffing the foam dart gun, as ranged combat sort of goes against the Tyranid style. Were it up to me, I'd take the pellet gun off entirely and capitalize on the fact that they're the fastest 'Nid unit with a charge or leap attack or something to that effect filling the secondary slot (though given the work that's already been done on the coding and the model, I'm sure that's out of the question at this point).

Lictor:
My personal favorite unit. Sneaking around the smurfs and eating the guys in back is the best thing ever. The only problem I have with the lictor is that it seems sort of easy for an attentive marine to spot one even if standing completely still, though making them harder to spot might make them overpowered. Also, any blood that appears on the lictor doesn't seem to go invisible with you, making you an easy target if you've been hit. One more thing that I'd like to add is that I think would be very cool if lictors could climb along walls (an idea I got while watching the Beta 5 video on moddb, as it appeared to be what the player at 1:25 was doing at first), however it probably wouldn't be the easiest thing to code in and might make them overpowered.

Carnifex:
Like a living, breathing land raider. The only two minor problems I have with this guy is that the odd field of view can be a little disorienting at times and the scream attack doesn't seem to do anything, though I've never been on the receiving end of a carnifex scream, so I can't say for sure. Given the scream attack's short range and the 'fexes ability to absorb damage like a wall, however, it seems more prudent to close the extra foot or so and use the ultra-raep claws instead.

Zoanthrope:
A decent support unit, but it seems a little underwhelming for the Tyranid team's most expensive unit. The excruciatingly slow speed combined with the fact that he needs to duck under most obstacles makes moving any more than a few feet a royal pain, the SOOPER SYKER MIND BLAST feels like it could use a longer range considering how slow and vulnerable he is, and his secondary ability is completely worthless given that he's supposed to be staying as far away from the enemy as possible and even if they do close with him, they all have guns and aren't going to be getting in close anyway.

[ChromeAngel]

Thanks Bunnymind.  I hope you read my piece about the Veteran in the second post now you've found this thread.  Was this written after playing with the 5.01 patch or with the original beta?

[BunnyMind]

Thanks Bunnymind.  I hope you read my piece about the Veteran in the second post now you've found this thread.  Was this written after playing with the 5.01 patch or with the original beta?

I did read your bit about the veteran. I didn't actually know they got a speed boost or extra grenades at the time I wrote this, but honestly, I'd have to say my answer is still the same. He seems only marginally better than the tactical with a higher point cost which could better be used on a deadlier class. I've only played with the veteran a few times on the Marine team, but when I'm playing 'Nid and I see a veteran, I don't think danger or threat, I think biomass.

As for your bit about the deathspitter, Marines never take cover from it. Most of the time they strafe around in the open dodging your shots and returning fire with their superior firearms.

And I've been playing the 5.01 patch.

[darktimes]

hmm.. I really like the leap suggestion for the warriors. but in return just take away the deathspitter, as Leap IS pretty awesome ability

[cowz with gunz]

Don't take away death spitter and choose leap, just make you be able to change you're class load out, like to be able to switch between bolter with scope and just bolter.

[Mingus]

That would be the most awesome addition to RS2. Loadouts.