Suggestion & User Discussion: Assault marines.

[Joven]

After reading some comments from people requesting Assault Marines and the denial on the part of the devs (because you could "overview" all the map by flying out of the designed space), I had some enlightening thoughts how we could still realise an Assault-like class without causing too much trouble to the devs. I've already talked with chrome over this, and he seemed not to disapprove . To make things easier, I've divided the Post into some sections , the first one being about the technical solution I propose and the second one is mainly about balance.

MECHANICS

 First of all, Assault marines would hover in the air just like a zoan (also meaning that falling doesnt cause them dmg) , but unlike the zoan they would be a very fast class, they should be the only marine class that could outrun warriors. This could be Indeed also a problem, but I think I already have a possible remedy for that matter. More on this in the "Balance" Section.

Secondly, instead of leap-flying, as you maybe know it from DoW, they would just be able to jump higher then an average marine, about maybe 5-8 times higher, by charging up jumps . No flying, no lookout on the whole map.
Basicly I had the Leg-booster implant from dystopia in mind, that enables you to charge by hold-pressing the space button, and high-jumping by releasing afterwards. Concerning the maximum heigth... you know the small flat buildings in thunderhawk ? I thought AM's could jump on them if they charge up to the max, probably high enough to jump over a fex. 

 Problems
 One problem for me here are the controls of the jump itself (range, direction etc.) because I didn't find it easy to control those in dystopia. And besides I haven't thought about limitations for the jumps yet, because im not sure if charging is enough of a handicap. Maybe some kind of energy bar that refills itself slowly over time could help out, but that is something the dev's should decide if it's worth the effort.

Basicly, it would be a fast , mobile marine class that could jump high, without causing any ugly mapping problems.

BALANCE

As the AM's versatility breach the traditional defensive conception of marines, they must have a big drawback in firepower, or at least weaponary that can't be so easily handled (like Mr. heavy who just points and shoots).

WEAPONS
I thought of a mere chainsword/small bolter combo, but unlike the standart chainsword and small bolter the AM's weapons would be slightly buffed. I recommand a faster-shooting small bolter and a chainsword that does nearly bolter-damage.

To avoid boredom and monotony, they could get some kind of remote mines instead of the standard granades, that would enable possibilities beyond a mere "supporter" class (and would bring a great deal of fun too
These mines would be shootable and would deal about two times the dmg of standart nades, with the same, or smaller, radius of dmg. Unlike the normal granades however, they should deal bonus damage to armoured units, in this case expecially fexes. Because all-in-all, this class would have almost no other possibilities of harming fexes. With these remote mines, Assaults could punish uncaring fexes which chased the "paper class", aware of the easy prey they'd make...

HEALTH
I have also recommandations concerning their HP :
As they would be the only "melee" marines , they should at least have more hp then all other human
classes. But that doesn't mean they have to be very durable, as a "tank" class would be the absolutely devastating to the nids. They should not be able to halt the advancement of nids, not at all, they should merely be able to distract nids.
This is why they should be able to withstand 3 claw attacks, maybe 2 melee attacks and 1 direct deathspitter. Doing so makes it possible for them to survive long enough to distract tyrandis, but not too long.


END WORDS
Like this, they would be a great assault, ambushing and supporter class that would break with the standards but yet a fair class.
Yes, they maybe insane fast cappers, but if you think of the nid capabilities to fastcap already at T1 (im talkin about you, mr.lycantium!) you quickly come to realise that it isn't such a deal.  My opinion is, that in a far-distant future,  Marines should have some more offensive power, as nids need defensive . ATM its like defense vs offense, and that can be boring and annoying from time to time. After all, diversity in games means more fun, and I'm sure the class I proposed here will be fun to play

DISCUSSION
If you have any worries concerning my suggestion... just post it right here so I can think on the matter.
Until now, I have thought carefully about most things regarding the balance, but of course I'm not infallible (at least not yet:P ) and overlook
some issues that could be discovered easily ingame... Feel free to tell me.

I hope you had as much fun reading this novel as I had while writting it
Stay cool, Joven

[ChromeAngel]

Sounds like another tier 2 class, with the possibility of an "assault specialist" at tier 3.

I'm still concerned about the possibility of overlooking the outside of the map.  I'm thinking we could alpha-test this with placeholders before making more assets for something that might be more of a problem.

I like the idea of him taking no falling damage, but an always-on hover seems wasteful.

With his boosted speed, chainsword and extra grenades the veteran/squad leader was initially intended to be the marines melee unit.   The trouble with close assault classes for marines is VS nids is in their stats a physiology.   The nids have greater reach, meaning they can nearly always hit you before you hit them.  The nids have more limbs, so more opportunities to attack.  Even without the marines technological assistance nids are stronger and more ferocious fighters than marines.

It wouldn't be a problem against orks, eldar, chaos , tau or necrons, but the tyranids are just too good at CC.

Bahl and Nic2 are separately working on solutions to the Gaunt issue, so hopefully we might get something marines can kill in CC one day.

[Typheron]

I like the idea, but the always on hover could be a issue, i mean how is he going to duck? and what happens on maps such as spacehulk where the ceiling height in places is an issue already with the Zoe.

A turn on hover that goes fast would make more sence, so your marine walks as a normal marine walks, but can turn on his jump pack and hover above the ground a few feet allowing quicker travel but at only for a short period of time before requiring a recharge.

The final concern i have is rushing, a go really fast class is always a problem for map rushes and many of the Ex maps are especially vunerable to this.

I would still apply the current slowdown on moving backwards to them even while in the air, so they cant backpedal and shoot but have to face away from the tyranids to get away (so no backing up shooting).

[Joven]

I never thought about making AMs capable of competing with Nids directly in terms of melee.
 They should be more like a tricky class that could fight nids with cunning "hit and run" actions rather then banal engagement in melee combat... That means not just running into nids directly face-to-face and hackattacking, but instead trying to go round them and attack from behind, be it silently or not. And in case you get spotted you can still try to dodge claws (that works).

 Even though chrome's facts about nid physiology and CC capabilities are unbreakable , I think the mobility (and I mean jumps+boost speed) would compensate much for the humble reach of the chainsword.
 Consider a setting where a Assault rine directly approaches a warrior : Let's say he either jumps into the warrior or speeds into him, and both start attacking with melee in the same moment. With the HP boost the AM could deal significant dmg before he is stroked down by the Warrior, and as the Warrior does not HAVE to hit everytime (because our cunning AM tries to dodge the attacks), the AM gets a chance to survive and slay the Warrior before he is hit 3 times. Add now the little petty small bolter to our simulation, and you can assume the AM will use it to shot some bolts before he reaches that nid.
 Dodging worked for me with vets, and as the Assault would be even faster then vets, I can imagine that it'll work just fine.  So if it's not a FLUFF matter, I think it would be perfect regarding balance in CC.
Would require some skill though, but I think that would be more of a motivation =) Would have also a neat surprise factor.

 
 Typh's objection about an all-time hovering is sound. Gotta solution here: Replace the standard marine sprint with the ability to toggle between an active and standby jumppack mode.  It would be just the same thing as with normal marines (you can't run while crouching), and if you have the possibility to boost, why would you want to sprint anyway. But it would need an bar that could show you when your jumppacket is exhausted in case you want to limit the boost-length, cuz unlike the other marines the AM counts on his run speed.

 Backpedaling was never intended too, the AM's would still suffer the penalty for running backwards as all to the same ammount as a normal tac (I thought about disabling it at all first, but that would be kinda TOO much nerf). The only thing that would be possible would be running away and turning back shortly to shoot. As they would have only a mediocre to feeble ranged weapon with low accurancy, all they can do is trying to lay mines or kite nids (what would be also fun, but not that easy, except for the mines part maybe)


Capping is an issue that can be only tested ingame, I don't have a solution for this in mind. But be sure to contact me if you want to alpha-test those jumps , I'm sure a slightly modified parameter on a server in terms of jump height on tacs would be clarifying. Maybe we could as well check the boost speed like this.

I hope I did not too much perplex you with my idle thoughts =P I've lost track of what I had already said .

[L.o.L]

You could just make him a bit faster when when the Assault marine uses the Jump pack he could jump like in RS1 and DoW2. Assault marines dont really fly they just Jump into assault as in DoW2 and then begin melee.

[Synapse Creature Xthalis]

I have an idea for the capping, however I don't have a clue how well it would work, though its pretty simple...

Just lock all Capture points for a certain amount of time or something, so that neither side can cap.

I see how that could really fuck things up, but better to have a sketchy idea to start than to have no idea at all...

[Joven]

@L.o.L: a little bit faster wouldn't work in that concept. As Chrome said, marines should not able to beat nids in CC directly, so I think the only way to make them a competitive class is the considerably larger (temporary) speed boost and making them more of a cunning combat class then a mere CC storm suicide trooper. If they were just jumping into masses of nids they wouldn't be able to be playable at all (they'd suck, tbh).
And those jumps what you mean are exactly the issue that troubles Devs... I'm actually trying to evade these with my concept. I NEVER intended them to jump as they do in DoW !!

@Xithalis: Cap lock is more of a gameplay feature and has nothing to do with Assaults, honestly =D
But I find it to be a very good idea to improve the overall gameplay, you should suggest it. Would make the games longer and more interesting, at least nids wouldn't be able to fastcap lycantium and the last 2 objectives in hive anymore. Also Einstein-Objectivecampers could not cap everything within some 10 seconds....

[zenarion]

Assault Marines in RS1 work pretty well.
What you need is a way to control the jump somehow. A charge-up mechanic (hold button longer for longer boost) or a refilling energy that lets you jump once every minute or so.

Where did you get the remote mines from? Those would be hell of an ambush thing really. As far as I am concerned, frag/krak grenades are fine. So are meltabombs.
Pistol + chainsword is the simplest combination. You could eventually upgrade to something else, after gaining some levels.

[silveralen]

Well I have a suggestion as far as balance goes. Why not have Genestealers be the best in cc, have Assualt Marines and Tyranid Warriors tie for second, and Tactical Marines come in third? I think it is doable, overall allows Tyranids to be better in close combat overall, but allows marines a decent melee class. Also I wouldn't recommend using jump packs in any way other then a simple speed increase, allowing them to hover a la the Zoan and move very quickly for a short time, probably best just as an improved sprint feature.

[inespie]

Assault marine will broke the veteran class. the mines idea is not good, the Ex map are too small, it would be op. Poor fex has to deal with every door, and bug who stuck them, if they have minefield to get them too...

 And make a  Cac class, for a ranged team, is like making a fex
for the marine, a guy who taunt the entire team, when all others ranged keep firing.

But the idéa is not so bad, the nyd claws should be upgrade, in the spread, to be sure the assault marine has to be skilled to survive.  

And make it a T3 class, kuz i dont want the game will finish in licta rush vs assault rush. and  for the poor vet class.